Marvel Civil War II: IRON MAN vs CAPTAIN MARVEL! || Comic Misconceptions || NerdSync

Marvel Civil War II: IRON MAN vs CAPTAIN MARVEL! || Comic Misconceptions || NerdSync


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    Bumbleness Supreme Brady

    Pre-punishment would work if you could do it accurately 100 percent of the time. Criminal Justice sees punishment as an effective measure in 4 areas: 1. Punishment has to be fair, 2. Punishment has to be associate with the crime, the person has to know they're being punished for that crime, 3. Punishment has to be swift. You cannot punish someone when the crime or action is so far removed from it that they won't remember the event. 4. Punishment has to be certain. They have to know they will be punished for doing the crime.

    Pre-punishment fails on a major one of these, the 2nd point. Punishment will not be effective if a person is being punished before they commit a crime because they won't see the connection for why they're being punished.

    Punishment is supposed to be used as a deterrence and pre-punishment could never be used to deter crime in the real world.

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    Obroa-skai

    This whole argument is lopsided because it relies on an archaic and frankly draconian idea of "punishment." Nothing Carol talks about in this series is about punishing criminals who deserve it–it's about stopping tragedies, sometimes entirely natural cataclysms with no one to blame, and sometimes acts committed by people–but nevertheless, prevention is the goal here. And by that note, there's literally no reason not to use Ulysses' abilities and the whole "but it's just a future" argument is missing the point by a country mile.

    More importantly, who says that if the thing the Avengers want to prevent is a crime, they have to actually send the would-be criminal to jail? Who says they even have to confront or detain him? If Ulysses can calculate the most likely future using probability, that means he must have knowledge of the events that lead up to and contribute to (insert bad thing). Why not attack the circumstances without directly addressing the free will problem? If there's gonna be a bank robbery, tell that bank to increase security, or maybe even have Tony Stark pay the robber's mom's hospital bill so he decides not to commit the crime at all. If a terrorist attack is about to happen, find the bomb and disable it. Etcetera and so on. Or if that's too hard or unreliable, you can still detain a potential threat without necessarily punishing them or sending them to prison.

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    227060

    Tonybis right. It isnt a grey issue. Carol is advocating punishment before crimes have been committed. Its akin to racial profiling

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    Mike Wilhelm

    I would, if I was in the Marvel ANAD universe, then I would use it for protection or intervention, not punishment. For example if Ulysses saw that John Smith was to rob a bank, then I would use the information to stop him from doing so, but not to punish him for actions he hasn't, and now may never do.

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    TheMisterbobman

    ulysses's power could be used ethically. Like already having cops where someone is about to commit a crime. only stop it once they have started the deed.

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    TimelessVisionary -TheMageofTime-

    Imagine if you just have the slightest thought of getting revenge on someone or doing something you'd never in your right mind go through with. That thought just became a timeline Ulysses might see. Imagine the police coming to arrest you all because of a fleeting thought

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    Robert Kelly

    It's almost like jumping to extremes is a bad thing and trying to understand your resources and how to best utilize them is important.
    What's that? you have a guy who can mathematically predict future events. Maybe you should learn more about his abilities like good little adults and use this ability to take note of possible events so if they come to pass you are ready for them and can put a stop to the instant the vision proves itself valid, potentially saving many more people than just arriving on the scene would do and being sure you did the right thing and stopped a genuine criminal.
    But what do I know, I'm just a normal guy with a working brain, not a comic book super hero.

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    DRAGO/93

    captain marvel its so desperate to make her own side justice that she make things worse,since this the character as been as take a blow in her already low popularity

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    Nicolai Veliki

    Context. Context. Context.

    Was Banner about to hulk out in a populated area with little to no threat to defend against?

    Best to hit him fast and precisely. Destroy his medulla oblongata and motor cortex.

    Is there an enhanced individual threatening innocents and Hulk is the only one capable of defeating them?

    Let the man work, and evacuate the area.

    IRL, we make an active effort to determine dangerous individuals and groups, observe them, and find evidence of their malefactuous plans before they are carried out. That's why not just anyone can buy cubic meters of Hydrogen Peroxide or Ammonium Nitrate without raising some law enforcement eyebrows. Ideally, punishment wouldn't be the goal of apprehending the individuals involved in these plans, but reform

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    Griffinheart

    I'm on Tony's side, the future should be respected and let flow, Ulysses's powers should be used as more of a warning, a sign to prepare but not take action yet. A crime will only be a crime once it has been acted, not before. Therefore punishment must be dealt after it along with substantial proof to back up the case.

    Though the notion of preventing crime by punishing it before hand is "romantic" in a sense, but it's unethical because that person may have a change of mind in doing that act.

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    ChibiYui 0.0

    the events in the comic is just dumb captain marvel is just dumb tbh believing in the 1% chance of things happening is just pure stupidity maybe the entire comic was made just to show how dumb danvers can be

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    Abhinav Kumar

    If this storyline gets adapted into a movie, I think it would go like Tony learning from the events of Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron. As Captain America says in Winter Soldier "Every time someone tries to win a war before it starts, people die". And Captain Marvel could be like Tony pre-Age of Ultron. It would be like Tony fighting against his former self.

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    Origami Tesseract

    Why is not talking criminals out of it before they do it not an option?
    Also a pessimistic part of me gives a nagging feeling somenone could use it to falsely accuse others.

    In a imperfect reading. I think even if there is a fraction of a decimal of a chance that the criminal may not go through with it, than it is still a big miscarriage of justice.
    But I do not think that predictions is not a useful either. It is still useful… Sorry for the double negative there.

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    Serite Ross

    Very easy. Iron Man, just because he didn't trust Ulysses. When I say that Captain Marvel's view was so twisted that she would condemn an innocent person just to prove that she is right, I can hardly see her as a hero. At the end, Ulysses was proven to only be right a small percentage of the time. And look where it all ends, Ulysses is gone and can no longer be utilized by Captain Marvel and now there is a possibly irreparable rift in the superhero ranks. So much for her blind trust. Yeah, it may have saved a lot of lives to catch people before they did bad things, but look at how many people died and how much infighting ensued during that short time because Captain America decided to trust Ulysses 100%. Iron Man's view was better, not because he's a futurist or his views were in any way righteous or anything, but simply because he was cautious and knew that it was likely too good to be true and even went to lengths to prove his point. Captain Marvel did none of that, her proof was in the form of people getting arrested. And she even proved herself wrong when she arrested the woman with the empty suitcase and refused to let her go, yet she couldn't let it go because she needed Ulysses to be right. Her arrogance was very, very clear at that time, and even more clear when she got mad at Tony for freeing the woman. Not the first time I've had a problem with the portrayal of Captain Marvel if the very few recent conics I've read, but that was the cake topper which really made me stop reading. No wonder so many people dislike Marvel now.

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    Romero

    Isn't the answer simple? The power should be used to prevent crimes, there's no need for punishment, since you'll also prevent the person from becoming a criminal.

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    Romero

    About Hawkeye, he did the right thing, not because he's on the correct side of the moral discussion, bit because it was a different situation. Bruce gave him both permission and the tools to kill, it was not purely Hawkeye's call, Bruce trusted his judgement. That was an assisted suicide, not an assassination.

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    doctorwhom1

    My problem with this was that nothing was/could be done to check if Ulysses was trustworthy. They even had telepaths look into his mind and everyone said "He's a black box, we can't read him." I was 95% sure that the big reveal would be that he was Mephisto manipulating everything. Where was Doctor Strange preforming magical lie detection? Where were the polygraphs to check if he was telling the truth? Captain Marvel was extremely lucky that Ulysses was a completely bland person with no real agendas, biases, or ambitions.

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    Name Goes Here

    Man, the set of this crossover sounds familiar…

    Hey, anyone ever see that one movie with that short actor?

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    Natan Shick

    The whole reason of punishment is to make make people fear to commit a crime. Like I will now for sure that if I would murder someone I will go to jail, and this knowledge is what preventing me doing this act. No one wants to get punished, so most of us don't break the law. Villains are a whole different subject, you can prevent the crime, but you often can't actually infulence their mindset. Punishment is a warning for those who hasn't done anything wrong yet. And punishing before the crime just make the whole system meaningless.

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    Ethan Lion7

    Um…I think the answer is that she's pretty clearly wrong…. like, in the comics, they literally find out that the premonitions are wrong, soooooo…..

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    Talha Mukhtar

    I agree with Iron Man in the first instance and Captain Marvel in the second. The difference is one of agency. If Banner were to Hulk out, it would not be by choice; if it were, he would clearly choose not to. Furthermore, once the Hulk came out, in the state he would be in, there would have been no rational mind controlling him. The Hulk would be more akin to an earthquake or a hurricane than a criminal. Banner explicitly asked that, if his body began to involuntarily undergo this catastrophic transformation, that he be killed before calamity struck. That’s agency and self-determination, and a heroic thing to do.

    When it comes to punishing a future crime however, a person is meaningfully different in some experiential way after committing some relevant action of import, such as a crime. Put another way, a criminal does not experience being a criminal until she commits a crime. Not to make it uncomfortable, but take the story of Adam and Eve. An omniscient God would have known from the start that the two would eat the forbidden fruit. However, He didn’t cast them from Eden until they had. Why? Because to us today, the story would not be nearly as morally/religiously potent if it went: “Eve totally would have listened to a talking snake and eaten some forbidden fruit, and Adam definitely would have joined in gladly, so God was like “nah” and kicked them out of Eden from the start to save time and valuable produce.” Adam and Eve being confronted with the reality of their choice and their own (our own) inherent capacity to do what we’re not supposed to is what makes the story meaningful. Similarly, having to confront the reality of one’s criminal behavior by having actually committed it is an important part of criminal justice and criminal reform.

    I believe that a truly just system should focus on reducing the number of criminals and benefiting individuals and the community, and thus prison should be a place of reform. People should leave healthier, more thoughtful, and more educated than when they entered, and be better equipped to be a force for good in the community they are released into. After serving their time, former felons should be better parents, better spouses/partners, better leaders, and overall more empathetic and emotionally & socially capable people. This is a lot harder to do when the people in prison can make the valid claim that they have never committed any crime. Only when confronted with the reality of one’s capacity for evil can a person begin to fight against that capacity.

    Now, if we could somehow capture a criminal after she committed a crime, then turn back time so that the crime itself was no longer committed but the criminal had, for her part, made and acted upon the relevant criminal intention, that might be a different story. But, if the intent is not made, and subsequent actions not taken, the experience of criminality does not yet exist and the would-be criminal is therefore no longer able to confront that experience and begin the reformation process. This means that she will be the same crime-prone, if not worse, after coming out of prison. There will be an eternal criminal (or “confirmed future-criminal”) population, and thus a constant threat to the people. If in even one instance that threat cannot be stopped even if it is predicted, the fault lies in part with the justice system for allowing or even nurturing that threat.

    In short, Captain Marvel needs Jesus (or Kant).

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    Zentaku Trance

    Iron man is mostly on the right here. You can still use the predictions to be in a spot where you are ready for when something may go badly, but you shouldn't just take out the person before they do anything. In the case of hawkeye and the hulk there is an odd exception to be made in the favor of hawkeye's actions as he was prevoiusly given the would be hulk's blessing to make a call in banner's place. Neither is completely right but iron man is definitely closer, unlike the first civil war.

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    Susan

    Me: "I predict this burrito will give me sudden violent diarrhea"
    NerdSync: "Resist the temptation to prevent bad things. Just let the future happen."

    Later…

    Me: "Why oh why did I take such bad advice?!"

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    jose Solis II

    Man iron man can’t beat anyone who has captain in there name #1 Captain America #2 captain marvel

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    Alex Dubuc

    Since stark is dead now I want this movie to have Spider-Man take iron mans place or doctor strange

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    Justin Land

    I feel like considering only inaction or pre punishment presents a false dichotomy. You could intervene in a way which prevents a crime which is not necessarily a punishment. I feel pre-punishment can only produce results which fit into one of two categories. Either the pre-punishment prevents the crime, in which case there is punishment for a crime which was not committed, or the pre-punishment fails to prevent the crime, in which case what are you even really doing.

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    rjshadow4321

    ground a teenager fore sneaking out at night so they don't sneak out now they cant be grounded for it.

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    Dr. Jonathan Crane

    Honestly I don't agree with punishment for crimes traditionally, in most cases. Instead of punishment, we need to rehabilitate them. Honestly, most criminals need help, and the ones who can't be helped would be dangerous and they should be put away, not because they need to be punished, but because we need to be protected

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    Gregory Bogosian

    In the real world I am more sympathetic to the Captain Marvel pre-punishment position. But in the story itself we know that Ulysses' visions are unreliable and Captain Marvel is just being a stubborn idiot. Remember the business woman they wrongfully arrested?

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    Rory Lumley

    If you think extra precautions to prevent crimes and tragides. But think captain marvels pre-punishment is going too far are you on her side. A third middle ground faction would have been intresting.

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    Cormac Green

    Wish it wasn't Capt M arguing for it but I would believe in pre crime in this sense, the nmarvel universe has celestial threats like Galactus that can show up on your doorstep everyday, having knowledge about those situations ahead of time can only be a good thing. Now everyday law enforcement may not be where I would use Ulysses's ability but Carol made the right call with Thanos, one American soldier died rather than who knows how many hundreds or thousands of civilians

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    Kyle & Chung

    I’m team iron man because killing a person before it happened is wrong and weird why would they kill Bruce if he had not hulked out and arrest Miles it is so messes up and doing before you know it is weird you could just wait or find Doctor Strange that thing that is fighting the person before they did a crime is weird it maybe just be a dream it caused Rhody and Bruce Banner’s death

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    Christopher Horn

    Tony was right thought police is always wrong. Ulysses can only see a portion of a possible future and cannot see what led to that future.

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